Siliconera have recently posted a very interesting article/interview with mangagamer concerning the state of visual novels. Games localised by Aksys are used as an example so it makes for an even better read.
What are the chances of VNs becoming mainstream in the West?
Visual Novels: A Cultural Difference Between The East And West
(34 posts) (14 voices)-
Adrian-kun
MemberPosted 1 year ago # -
Letters
MemberThat was a really interesting article. Offtopic but I've really been liking siliconera lately, it's my main gaming news site ever since that horrible kotaku redesign. They're nice.
Anyway I don't think it's fair to say that Americans don't like reading, especially when compared to Japan. Actual novels sell a whole lot better here. The best selling book in Japan is a One Piece volume and as far as I know, their manga industry is bigger than their novel industry. This medium that goes out of its way to tell a story through visuals rather than paragraphs of text. Yet despite the popularity of super heroes here, comics are still considered juvenile and the modern comic print industry barely scrapes by.
Visual novels are a relatively small market compared compared to "real games" even in Japan. Even the most popular ones like Clannad and Fate only sell a few hundred thousand while Monster Hunter and Final Fantasy sell in the millions.
I think Visual Novels have a good chance to capture a similar audience in the west. Despite that article, Americans do like to read but we need authors who cater to our tastes. I don't think Galge has much of a chance but we love our mystery and realistic settings. The anime artstyle is also a hurdle for western audiences.
Posted 1 year ago # -
Hollow_Ninja
MemberOne thing that I really fault Japanese games for is the focus on completion rather then on the relationships themselves. In Japanese games, when you pursue a relationship with another character, you do it to get closer to that 100% mark. You can see this in games like Persona (which is a series I love), where you can actually get 100% on social links over the course of the game. The focus is more on completing everything and responding the way that will build the highest numbers, rather than role-playing yourself in the game.
On the other hand, in American games such as Mass Effect, you pursue relationships for the relationship itself. 100% completion is impossible (which is how it should be) and pursuing one relationship closes off other routes. You're not trying to befriend as many people as possible, instead, you befriend whoever you like. Instead of responding during dialogue forks the way that will make the most friends, you respond the way you want to respond to the characters.
I think that's the key difference between the Western style and the Japanese. The Japanese style is about the percentage at the end of the game, while the Western style is about immersion and about the experience itself. I await the day when Japanese games become impossible to achieve 100% completion in, because 100% completion is undesirable.
Posted 1 year ago # -
SjSharks182
MemberWhen I play VNs I usually cling to whoever I like, and answer how I'd answer in that situation (at least the first couple gos). Also trying to "Respond to dialogue forks the way that will make the most friends" usually results in bad endings...
You also can't say "In American games such as Mass Effect" because how many Mass Effect-esque games do we get in America? Virtually none. I await the day when the American gaming industry has many games with sustenance. Because only one or two games like this a generation is undesirable.
Oh Summer, the love you bequeath with your wonderful leitmotif~
Posted 1 year ago # -
Hectotane
BlockedAnd all I gotta say about this article on "visual novels" is: Cool Story, Bro.
How about we compare a popular "visual novel" with, currently, a fighting style video game like Marvel Vs. Capcom 3.
There is no "BOOM! HEADSHOT!" You actually have to utilize your skills and effort to beat up and defeat the opponent; whether it's a cpu or some other live person. The thrill of the fight itself, as Street Fighter's Ryu had said it. The taste of a well-earned victory and the agony of defeat.
It's kinda sad how "not being able to read" is something that's part of a culture. It's as if John Pickett is inadvertantly saying that we in a West are a bunch of backwood hicks. (Because anime fans like me read subtitles and manga.)
Last I checked; the most popular movies out there were Transformers, comic-book-based, and Jack###. Do people watch movies to see people build relationships despite the consequences? (Twilight. But hey.)
The main purpose of anything entertainment-based is to let off steam. A stable, agreeable, and well worked-on story is highly appreciated. (Because serious damage had been caused during the Writer's Strike back in 2009.) But no. We just wanna blow off our frustration; something that's an equal to "punching someone we hate square in the face" but not as damaging or consequential.
Not to say that I know about the West's psychology first hand. But unless Mr. Pickett can truly grasp the psychology of people within the West, then the "visual novel" market will forever be in a niche market.
Or... If I had to pick between the cliche'd visual novel (where the supporting male lead never gets the girl while the main lead gets one of the many) or a cliche'd Marvel/DC comic series, I'd rather pick a cliche'd comic series because there would be less "milquetoast pansy-### guys crying in the corner" herein.
Posted 1 year ago # -
Azure Ryuujin
MemberSjSharks182 said:
When I play VNs I usually cling to whoever I like, and answer how I'd answer in that situation (at least the first couple gos). Also trying to "Respond to dialogue forks the way that will make the most friends" usually results in bad endings...You also can't say "In American games such as Mass Effect" because how many Mass Effect-esque games do we get in America? Virtually none. I await the day when the American gaming industry has many games with sustenance. Because only one or two games like this a generation is undesirable.
Amen to that. I remember when store shelves had whole selections of games like that. It's sad really. And I'm for more VNs. But as the poster after you said, people seem to like action more here ><.
That said, an audience HAS dawned, and could continue growing. No sense in giving up yet. =p
Posted 1 year ago # -
Tokyo Sandblaster
Memberuh...you guys are all failing to see the big picture because it's not like novels are big in Japan either. These games typically do well under 10k. Seems like the highest selling VN's do 30k max
I wouldn't call 30k big. 999 NA probably did more than that. 999 NA probably outsold the Japanese version. Still, in Japan they only need to sell a minimal amount of copies to justify pumping out more when you consider the cheap development cost and the fact that they take most of the profits when it's domestic
But in localizing these games for NA you're basically redoing half of what was required to create the game in the first place so 10k just doesn't cut it. the overseas market would have to be BIGGER than the niche japanese visual novel otaku market to justifying bringing these games over so this has absolutely nothing to do with cultural differences at least not in the way that you guys are looking at it
though I think it would be worth if the game was on iPhone/Android because that market could be a game changer
Posted 1 year ago # -
Letters
MemberTokyo Sandblaster said:
uh...you guys are all failing to see the big picture because it's not like novels are big in Japan either. These games typically do well under 10k. Seems like the highest selling VN's do 30k maxHigurashi sold over 500,000 and I'm sure Key's and Type Moon's work sell even better.
While the typical console eroge port do usually only sell in the 10k range, 30k is certainly not the max for these types of games.Posted 1 year ago # -
SjSharks182
MemberI'm not saying VNs will be successful or could be if "We can readz lollollol". I was merely stating... Well ok my post was rather arbitrary XD But the reason we ask for console ports is because a) most of us are used to consoles and b) we can currently play most pc games with a patch already. I know it's tough to turn a profit with, but I show my support/wishes despite that fact.
Oh Summer, the love you bequeath with your wonderful leitmotif~
Posted 1 year ago # -
Yukito
MemberReally, we got nothing on consoles to really say that they would do bad over here. The PS3 is obviously the side grabbing the more..."Japanese-styled fanbases", so until we get a good one on there, I fail to believe that a console one would do that bad. We only ASSUME that much. We have no solid evidence of this, and no one wants to take a step up, and see just how it would roll.
All I can think of recently has been what.... Disgaea Infinite? Not much going for that, since obviously, you need to be a Disgaea fan to even catch appeal on that game.
Like I said before, best way of getting them sold?
- Take one in demand, like Umineko, and run a PSN release for it.
- Advertise the hell out of it at anime cons.
- Have a few contests for it.
- Pull an Atlus, and give out some goodies through preorder if you don't do it digitally.
- In the debut trailer, make it known exactly what is going on, so people don't say "Still frames? Eww".If the game is TRULY as good as people say, it will be taken by storm through Word of Mouth. It would sell pretty well I believe, if Aksys picked up a VN, and gave it serious thought, on how to get it known. I really really think the anime con idea would work the best.... maybe even hire some people to cosplay the cast at a stand or something, giving out these little postcard things with info?
.... Again, we have nothing to go on. Until we get something new and actually known, I don't think we have any window at all of how the sales will go.
White Album for the US!Posted 1 year ago # -
Shizuka
MemberYukito said:
Like I said before, best way of getting them sold?- Take one in demand, like Umineko, and run a PSN release for it.
- Advertise the hell out of it at anime cons.
- Have a few contests for it.
- Pull an Atlus, and give out some goodies through preorder if you don't do it digitally.
- In the debut trailer, make it known exactly what is going on, so people don't say "Still frames? Eww".I wish Aksys could read your advices and realize that this could be a great project for them to study VNs on consoles (rather than on handhels, because they must have 999's numbers and projections).
Posted 1 year ago # -
Tokyo Sandblaster
MemberAnime conventions sound like small potatoes - how many sales can they realistically gain from doing that?
And either way ya'lls are NEVER gonna get Umineko or Ever17 because while there might be a possibility of success for the genre, those two games don't exactly embrace that possibility.
428 on the other hand, actually makes sense. The concept has infinitely wider appeal than these creepy pedophile games you guys keep asking for, it has high production values compared to most VN's, it's the only VN to get a perfect score from Famitsu, Aksys already has a relationship with Chunsoft. Release it as a PSN release on both PSP and PS3 and it might just become a big hit over time.
Posted 1 year ago # -
SjSharks182
Member>Implying Ever17 is a pedophile game
Ha oh you
And Famitsu sucks; you know that right? (40/40 for: Super Smash Bros Brawl, New Super Mario Bros Wii, ect.)"Release it as a PSN release on both PSP and PS3 and it might just become a big hit over time."
How about they release Ever17 and gain instant success? Just promote it like they did 999, and emphasize it's by the same writer as 9 Hours 9 Persons 9 Doors. Insta-success, and how is 6 people trapped in a futuristic underwater theme park not an appealing premise? Sure it may receive some flak from critics for similarities between it and 999, but people will see the ludicrous amount of praise for the game by everyone on the internet. I guarantee everyone who enjoyed 999 will buy E17. Lots of people who missed 999, but heard the mass praise for 999, will give E17 a shot (especially after seeing the even greater praise for E17). And people will go ballistic once they hear that E17 is being re-released, leading to a massive spread of promoting by fans. I want to see Umineko released first and foremost, but E17 is the only VN that I know will turn a profit. 428, just sounds kind of generic (not saying it's bad, but the premise doesn't entail the game's quality).
Oh Summer, the love you bequeath with your wonderful leitmotif~
Posted 1 year ago # -
Tokyo Sandblaster
MemberYeah, I know Famitsu is a joke, I knew someone would probably point that out, but it's all about perception and marketing so when you slap something like that on a magazine ad people might take notice.
Never played Ever17 but again, perception is the most important thing so if I can perceive it as a creepy pedofest then you can bet your ass that Average Joe will too and I can't see labeling it as "from the makers of 999" causing enough people to give a damn especially when it's on a different type of platform from a completely different manufacturer
Again, 428 just meets every criteria that Aksys should be looking for. It's on the right platforms, it has the right kind of content, it has the most potential for success. To try to refute that just seems like you're in denial
edit: plus you can probably just as easily tie in 428 with 999 if you think that approach would actually be effective because both are Chunsoft games so you can just as easily advertise 428 as "from the makers of 999 blah blah blah". but again, the game can stand on it's on, trying to ride on 999's success probably won't make a huge difference
Posted 1 year ago # -
SjSharks182
MemberI guess you have me on the famitsu thing. On the pedophilia thing, that literally applies to all forms of anime in the west coast. It just has that stigma. Because I honestly can't fathom any other way one arrives at pedophilia from E17. That will certainly dieter customers, but a bunch of live-action asians on the cover of 428 will steer just as many consumers away as anime. As a general rule of thumb, I (and I know plenty others like this too) avoid any game where it looks like they just took pictures of people and plopped them in the game. It comes off as cheesy.
I'm certain saying from the same author would pique people's attention, but it doesn't need that. As you said 428 doesn't need to ride on 999's success. Neither would E17. The premise itself is interesting and exciting. People love to see unfortunate souls trapped in dire situations (see: Saw). Also, as I said earlier, 428 looks rather generic. How many cop investigation mysteries are out there? It would need something like "from the makers of..." to confirm the quality of the game. Though intelligent shoppers would know that "makers of" doesn't exactly denotate quality; whereas, "author of" is much more reassuring.
"Again, 428 just meets every criteria that Aksys should be looking for. It's on the right platforms, it has the right kind of content, it has the most potential for success."
The platform isn't entirely indicative of success here. More people own 360s than PS3s. Speaking of which, Sony is straight up against VNs, so Askys would need to get over that hurdle.
The underlined statement is so vague that it's almost ignorant. Please specify what is "the right content". E17 has "the right content". It's got mystery, suspense, and is intelligent (lots of pseudo science and philosophy).
"To try to refute that just seems like you're in denial."
So you're just flat out saying I'm wrong because I'm "in denial"? Try harder :|
Ever17 is one of the most often played visual novels once someone knows what they are. People check it out because it is universally accepted as "one of, if not, the best VN" on the internet. As long as your consumer has heard of the internet, they will be tempted by all of the hype. Especially if Askys markets the game with that in mind.
Oh Summer, the love you bequeath with your wonderful leitmotif~
Posted 1 year ago # -
Tokyo Sandblaster
MemberNo, the Ever17 art definitely looks much more pedophiliphic than the 999 art
And nothing wrong with live-action people, don't see why the people being asian would be a problem unless you're implying that we're all racists which I am most certainly not. Case in point, those CSI games must be doing pretty well,the fact that they keep pumping them out year after year
Also believe that PSP is the golden ticket here, not PS3, though I'm saying PSN in general because probably wouldn't cost much more to put it on PS3 via PSN if you already have the PSP version localized
Posted 1 year ago # -
SjSharks182
MemberIt's anime, so it looks that way. 999 was shrouded in blood and more realistic boxart to hide that. Well I guess the ratio of guys to girls attributes to that to. Still that's just prejudice that most who would be open to VNs should be able to get around, but it will still be an issue. You're still right there.
Well the asian thing was stupid to say on my part (I think of those horribad kung-fu movies). But if "an average joe like me can think like that, then I know others will too." :P It doesn't change that it's still unappealing regardless of race. And on the CSI games, I doubt those are doing well at all. They are just doing well enough to compensate for the abnormally low amount of money put into them. Those sell what little they do because people want to "play" their favorite tv show. 428 lacks that benefit.
I'm not too certain about the psp being the primary platform. Isn't that the lowest selling console in the west? Though I don't think that the console is the biggest issue. If the game can succeed it will despite it's platform.
Oh Summer, the love you bequeath with your wonderful leitmotif~
Posted 1 year ago # -
PurpleDoom
MemberTokyo Sandblaster said:
Also believe that PSP is the golden ticket here, not PS3, though I'm saying PSN in general because probably wouldn't cost much more to put it on PS3 via PSN if you already have the PSP version localized
As SjSharks said, though, SCEA is pretty much entirely against visual novels unless they have a certain amount of "real" gameplay (Sakura Wars 1 & 2 on the PSP got rejected for this reason, despite having an admittedly unpopular sales-wise game already released in the States.) It's really a major hurdle for any PS3 or PSP visual novel that tries to cross the Pacific.
On the other hand, I have to disagree with SjSharks on a couple points as well - while most American gamers have heard of and use the internet, E17 belongs to a very specific niche that's not going to appear on most mainstream gaming sites much or at all, so it's entirely possible to frequent various gaming websites and have never heard of even visual novels in general. In addition, the hype for a game like E17 would probably be a lot of hype coming from a small amount of individuals (kind of like the Tales series), so a lot of internet hype does not necessarily correlate to sales success. This is a more minor point, but pseudo-science and philosophy can often be deterrents to some players, as it comes off to many as being pretentious-sounding and trying too hard to be deep (even if that's not necessarily the case.)
Posted 1 year ago # -
SjSharks182
MemberI was referring to how once the game gets announced that fanbase will go off the rails with promoting it, and I'm certain most every mainstream site has at least a couple of those fans.
On Tales, those games suffer from almost every cliche in JRPGs and grow more and more redundant with each installment (note: I love Tales). E17 on the otherhand, is the pize jewel of this minority. It's hype will be "BEST!! Guys acquire NOA!" instead of Tales' wich is more along the lines of "Yeah I know, but the gameplay is good."
Sure it still doesn't correlate with success, but if Askys can utilize that in marketing it, and get the most out of it. I imagine it being quite beneficial.
Oh Summer, the love you bequeath with your wonderful leitmotif~
Posted 1 year ago #
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