Lack of honorifics in localised titles (localising vs. translating)

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Lack of honorifics in localised titles (localising vs. translating)

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Started 11 months ago by Adrian-kun
Latest reply from Hollow_Ninja

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Adrian-kun
Member

The Japanese language uses a broad array of honorific suffixes for addressing or referring to people, for example -san, as in Daniel-san. These honorifics are gender-neutral (can be used for males and females), and can be attached to first names as well as surnames, for example, Peter-san, Jessica-san, Smith-san. (wikipedia)
Unfortunately, almost all video game companies that publish Japanese games in the US and EU remove this element.
Did you know that in Final Fantasy X, Yuna actually addresses Auron as 'Auron-sama'?
(-sama is used mainly to refer to people much higher in rank than oneself).
Late in the game she says 'Auron-san' (-san is a title of respect typically used between equals of any age) in order reflect the fact that the relation between them has changed.
The English language doesn't offer these forms of respect which is shame. But that doesn't mean we can't maintain elements from other cultures. The Japanese language has received many English words after all.
Either way, I'm glad that certain companies try to maintaining these elements. I think other companies should as well, especially since these companies are publishing games made by Japanese. Why should one remove an important part of their culture?

PS: Sorry for the long post:)

Posted 11 months ago #
Hollow_Ninja
Member

Er, no. That's far too literal, and is in most cases unprofessional and should be removed. The English language doesn't use honorifics, therefore, English works shouldn't use honorifics (excepting games like Persona 3, where they're included for stylistic reasons, and even then, are not the same as the honorifics used in Japanese).

These days, translations of Japanese works are too literal. Translators often forget that making the dialogue flow in English is just as important as preserving the original Japanese. keeping a good flow in English with a literal translation, since different languages use different writing devices (and keeping them in for an audience that won't notice them is just silly. It makes more sense to use an English equivalent than the Japanese original). Translating a Japanese pun directly, for example, is absolutely pointless and takes away from the work.

Every good translation reads as if it was written natively in the language it was translated to. I'm not talking about cultural references (which should preserved as much as possible) but rather, about the writing. Keeping honorifics in a game that takes place in a Japanese setting may be appropriate, if it's done Persona 3 style (localized honorifics that are different from the ones used in the Japanese version). However, in a medieval fantasy setting that draws from LotR for inspiration, honorifics are completely unsuited. Even in Japanese settings, much of the time it's better to remove the honorific.

I'm replying politely to you because you wrote a good, reasonable post. That's far more than the average weaboo does. However, over-literal translations like what you suggest are what is causing the anime market to become more and more niche. There's only so long a market can survive what it gets no new consumers and people slowly lose interest in it as time passes by. If you want to still be watching anime and playing Japanese video games 10 years from now, it's important that the market attracts new people. And most new people will be turned off by honorifics they don't understand.

In fact, I'm tempted to say this: There is no such thing as a good translation of a fictional work. There are only good localization.

Posted 11 months ago #
Corfish1001
Member

The English language offers many forms of respect. Adressing teachers by Mr/Mrs (Their Last Name) is a form of respect. Using sir or madam, or in some cases calling them by their profession. It's not necessary to translate honorifics, because we have our own way of showing respect. The example you used was Yuna in FF10. If I'm not mistaken, multiple times throughout the game she addressed Auron as "Sir Auron", and that's the same as Auron-sama basically. As Hollow said, it actually alienates groups to try to keep things similar to the Japanese version. It's a bit irresponsible, and I feel like it shouldn't be necessary unless the setting itself is directly involved with Japan.

Posted 11 months ago #
Hollow_Ninja
Member

Even then, though, some common sense is necessary. Having high schoolers refer to each other as Mr. and Mrs. is just ridiculous. A good translator has to be able to use the terminology that is appropriate and flows naturally instead of trying to mimic the flow of the Japanese text.

That means, of course, that liberties need to be taken. In English, respect is shown through different ways than just forms of address. Simply translating honorifics to an equivalent in English may not truly convey the relationship between speakers to an English speaking audience, because in English, we're used to that relationship being expressed in other ways.

Posted 11 months ago #
Rogue Ninja
Member

Hollow_Ninja said:
Er, no. That's far too literal, and is in most cases unprofessional and should be removed. The English language doesn't use honorifics, therefore, English works shouldn't use honorifics (excepting games like Persona 3, where they're included for stylistic reasons, and even then, are not the same as the honorifics used in Japanese).

These days, translations of Japanese works are too literal. Translators often forget that making the dialogue flow in English is just as important as preserving the original Japanese. keeping a good flow in English with a literal translation, since different languages use different writing devices (and keeping them in for an audience that won't notice them is just silly. It makes more sense to use an English equivalent than the Japanese original). Translating a Japanese pun directly, for example, is absolutely pointless and takes away from the work.

Every good translation reads as if it was written natively in the language it was translated to. I'm not talking about cultural references (which should preserved as much as possible) but rather, about the writing. Keeping honorifics in a game that takes place in a Japanese setting may be appropriate, if it's done Persona 3 style (localized honorifics that are different from the ones used in the Japanese version). However, in a medieval fantasy setting that draws from LotR for inspiration, honorifics are completely unsuited. Even in Japanese settings, much of the time it's better to remove the honorific.

I'm replying politely to you because you wrote a good, reasonable post. That's far more than the average weaboo does. However, over-literal translations like what you suggest are what is causing the anime market to become more and more niche. There's only so long a market can survive what it gets no new consumers and people slowly lose interest in it as time passes by. If you want to still be watching anime and playing Japanese video games 10 years from now, it's important that the market attracts new people. And most new people will be turned off by honorifics they don't understand.

In fact, I'm tempted to say this: There is no such thing as a good translation of a fictional work. There are only good localization.

Wishing really hard for a "like" button. Well said, sir.

Can I not elicit even a sarcastic quip?

Posted 11 months ago #
Magna_Mixalis
JERK-sama

Ah, honorifics, the bane of localization editors everywhere. Those,and the gender neutrality inherent in Japanese, cause me the most headaches.

I'd throw in my thoughts on this, but I'm hatefully busy right now working on <poodles with switchblades>.

Maybe later...

Posted 11 months ago #
Hollow_Ninja
Member

Magna_Mixalis said:
Ah, honorifics, the bane of localization editors everywhere. Those,and the gender neutrality inherent in Japanese, cause me the most headaches.

I'd throw in my thoughts on this, but I'm hatefully busy right now working on <poodles with switchblades>.

Maybe later...

I agree that it's hard to produce a good translation. Maybe that's why I see more and more translations that, while they are accurate and understandable, don't flow so well in English. Basically, they sound too obviously like a translation, even if they're not necessarily bad ones.

But yeah... a lot of rewrites must be necessary, and I can imagine that you'd need to be a really good writer as well if you want to translate something well.

Posted 11 months ago #
Magna_Mixalis
JERK-sama

As a rule, I tend towards interpretation as opposed to translation. Translation only tells you what the words are, but not their intent.

Posted 11 months ago #
Noelpoem
Member

I could see honorifics working in some cases and not in others. The Auron example could be done just fine with Sir or Lord, but the example of students using san or senpai would just come off awkward. I'd say its not so cut and dry, but more of a case by case basis.

Posted 11 months ago #
Xelloss
Member

Some people say using honorifics in English is unprofessional. I wholeheartedly disagree, honorific usage can convey an enormous amount of info regarding the social situation. Honestly it is a common occurrence where the "localization" fails to capture the original nature of the relationships, and all the social undercurrents. Sometimes this matters, sometimes it doesn't.

This is exacerbated with dubbed voices, and is one reason why I typically cannot abide them. (there are of course, always exceptions)

Of course, the problem is there is no easy answer. So I tend to give ppl who localize a bye, just because of that. But... if a localizer feels that they need to include honorifics to maintain the feel of the social setting or subtleties of the relationships then I do not consider that unprofessional. Sometimes I think you are caught between honorifics, or else losing out on relevant social and situational info... or else having to "alter" the script somehow.

I do think the setting has a large role to play in appropriateness though. If the setting is a fantasy setting, or a Japanese setting... then including honorifics to me makes a lot of sense. There just needs to be some sort of indoctrination/explanation for people who may not be familiar. Obviously if the setting does not match... that is a different story. Even though I tend to prefer honorifics, even I would think that a story about a bunch of Americans from Montana would look completely absurd if they were using honorifics.

Posted 11 months ago #
Rogue Ninja
Member

Aww, Magna's awesome reply to this got deleted. Sad times.

Can I not elicit even a sarcastic quip?

Posted 11 months ago #
Belisarius
Dangerous at both ends and crafty in the middle.

Rogue Ninja said:
Aww, Magna's awesome reply to this got deleted. Sad times.

Managed to pull it off of an rss feed, actually:

^^Good point, but it misses the whole point of localization, which is to make the text comprehensible to players not familiar with (in the case of our games) Japanese culture. While we're not in CoD territory, our games do sell well enough that it's safe to assume that a majority of those playing our games have very little, if any, familiarity with the Japanese language, let alone the intricacies of Japanese social hierarchy.

In addition, many Japanese honorifics have no English equivalents as the relationship structures they represent aren't even acknowledged in western culture to the degree they are in Japan, if at all. You want real fun, come up with an accurate English equivalent of the every popular "????" when used as a diminuative form of address.

And unlike those who localize manga and anime, we in the game gulags don't get the luxury of being able to add translator's notes to explain things. We have a very limited amount of space in which to convey a great deal of information, and to accurately explain things like -sama, -sempai, etceteras, would come at the cost of story exposition, quest explanations, and character development.

There's a lot more I can say on the subject, but I need to get back to editing <bulldogs with berets>. I'll just end with the following:

If you need a dictionary or wikipedia to play a game I worked on, I didn't do my job.

Data, data, data. I cannot make bricks without clay.

Alles andere ist käse.

And in case there is any confusion, yes, I do work for Aksys. If you have a questions, or care to verify my identity, you can e-mail me by putting my username in front of @aksysgames.com.

Posted 11 months ago #
asrttyoxo
Member

Thanks Beli for finding that.

That response was epic.

...and worthy of a title change for Magna I think.

Posted 11 months ago #
Belisarius
Dangerous at both ends and crafty in the middle.

asrttyoxo said:
Thanks Beli for finding that.

That response was epic.

...and worthy of a title change for Magna I think.

Done and done. :3

Data, data, data. I cannot make bricks without clay.

Alles andere ist käse.

And in case there is any confusion, yes, I do work for Aksys. If you have a questions, or care to verify my identity, you can e-mail me by putting my username in front of @aksysgames.com.

Posted 11 months ago #
Magna_Mixalis
JERK-sama

Ben...

You're a bastard.

I just thought you should know.

Posted 11 months ago #
Xelloss
Member

For what it is worth, I also thought it was a very good response and am glad to see it back. For what else it might be worth, it is always apparent when playing Aksys games that quite a bit of thought went into the wording and I think you guys do a very good job. No indirect criticism was meant to be implied.

I just recall for example, Persona 4. Atlus kept honorifics in that game even though it was dubbed, and I also thought that game was very well done; I did not find it unprofessional.

Posted 11 months ago #
Noelpoem
Member

Lol, the Daniel-san thing from op reminded me of Karate Kid.

Posted 11 months ago #
DanteJones
Member

Belisarius said:
Done and done. :3

Hahaha, ahhhh good times. XD

Posted 11 months ago #
Adrian-kun
Member

'If you need a dictionary or wikipedia to play a game I worked on, I didn't do my job.'

It's quite disheartening to hear that Aksys never uses sesquipedalian terms when localising a title. You simply must do something about.

Posted 11 months ago #
asrttyoxo
Member

Belisarius said:
Done and done. :3

Perfect XD

Posted 11 months ago #

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