Not sure if this is the right place to do this but i can't think of anywhere else to ask. As the creator of the game I'm sure you were aware of how certain match-ups would work Jin v. Ragna Tao v. Carl ect. But I was curious if you purposely designed it so that V-13 (Nu) against Tager would just be pointless. If I have the misfortune of fighting a Nu onlne as tagetr I generally jsut set down my controller and get something to eat that way I can atleast make good use of the time. The match is pointless to ever play in all honesty. Not only is the match 100% in Nu's realm of control but also as Tager you have to hope and pray that the Nu makes a monumental mistake like has coronary heart failure or a stroke or something that renders them unable to touch the controller. All thew matches go the same. dash back DD crouch DD back DD dash back repeat. quite frankly I'm about ready to put the game down because honestly theres no point to this fight. My question is are you planning on patching or some how altering her mechanic to run away? Maybe an update or even a new game with minor modificatons like with Guilty Gear. I know I'm not the only one who is tired of losing to people online who think they are awesome at the game because they can mash one button and win. Its infuriating to say the very least. Am I jsut that bad at the game or what that I literally cannot beat a Nu to save my life unless for some reason they slip up when they're doing their obviously very complex (scarcasm) drive combos. Also I'm fully aware that tagers 2D, 236a, 236b, sj. and j. can be used however all of those get punished like crazy because well.... Nu is nothing more than a stationary tureret that can dash around way the heck to fact. Please any help would be greatly apprecatred before I smash my 360, controllers, tv. and everything else I own that is remotely related to Blazblue.
Character Balance issues
(25 posts) (7 voices)-
Halfrican,
I don't work for Aksys, but I can answer some of your questions a little.
First, Tager and Nu-13 were the two characters that made it to the US SBO tournament, so Tager's no slouch. The Nu-13 player won a round, then the Tager player won a round, then Nu won again. So Nu was the victor, but Tager did beat her, so she's more than beatable.
Second, with that being said, BlazBlue's next iteration, BlazBlue: Continuum Shift, is supposed to nerf Nu-13 somewhat, whilst buffing Carl and Arakune, and giving Rachel a new super, and adding a new character or two. So you'll get your wish, but not in this game, unless Aksys decides to release Continuum Shift as paid DLC for the consoles. But a nerf in the next version means that they're very aware of the character balance issue.
Does that answer your request?
Posted 2 years ago # -
LimitGTX
Memberwow i'm kinda surprised that you find it so hard, i mean do play Nu/V-13 as well and i can't play Tager at all, however i find that tager is one that is unbalanced if anything, its true V-13 maybe fast and is a ranged character but she has less life than every other character in the game and against tager, which i think does the most damage in the game is unfair to V-13, her starting projectile gets knocked away so often and leaves her defenceless for the signature tager combo to begin which will really screw her over lol...
Not sure if i'm allowed to post links, but thats how i think most fights go
Posted 2 years ago # -
Gen Eric Gui
MemberTager is actually the worst character in the game. He does a lot of damage, but it's very, very difficult for him to approach most characters to actually do that damage. Last time I checked the rankings, Tager actually had a negative matchup against every single character in the game, with his matchup vs Nu being fairly large, like a 7-3 split or something.
So yeah, Tager is the last character to need a debuff. If anything, he needs to be made more mobile or his magnetism needs to be more reliable/effective so that he actually has a fair shake against the rushdown/runaway characters who top the charts.
Posted 2 years ago # -
As someone who mains Carl, Litchi, Tager, Nu, and Bang, I can tell you that Tager is fairly well balanced against almost every character. He is exceedingly powerful, but has very limited range and mobility. When Tager gets going, he's a force, but the only reason anyone thinks he's overpowered is because his combos have fewer hits and therefore appear easier. Anyone who's had to match against Jin, Nu-13, or players that focus on reach games knows that Tager's lack of mobility can be a huge disadvantage.
Nu-13 is the exception to this well balanced thing. This is simply because Nu-13 is very specifically made of keep-away. A good Tager player /can/ still defeat a good Nu player, but it requires more thought from the Tager player than the Nu player. It simply remains that Nu is slightly better than other characters, being the last boss, and Tager happens to be the one where this advantage is most pronounced.
Of my mains, I feel that Carl is most in need of a buff, as while he has some of the most fantastic grooves ever, everyone but Tager can stay far far away from Nirvana, or get in and back out very quickly. It's only a slight problem, and it's mostly made up for by the excellent grooves he can get in. Still, he lacks any game whatsoever when Nirvana is behind him and the enemy is on the opposite side of the screen. The projectile they're adding in continuum shift should hopefully make up for it without making Carl /too/ good.
Finally, to Gen Eric Gui, Tager is not the worst character in the game, if there is such a thing. For the record, the US championships last characters were Nu-13 and Tager, so the best character in the game, and what you perceive as the worst. That doesn't hold water. Tager is very good. He just has heavy downsides as well as heavy advantages. He's well balanced against other characters. Except maybe Noel. Poor Noel.
Posted 2 years ago # -
Gen Eric Gui
MemberJust because 1 person plays Tager really well doesn't mean he's not the worst character statistically. Literally, the only non-negative matchup that Tager has is versus himself; granted, most of his matchups are only at like 5.5 - 4.5 against, but he's got a couple of killers like the 7 - 3 against versus Nu and I believe a 6.5 - 3.5 against versus Arakune. This means that, given players of equal skill, Tager will only win 3 out of 10 matches versus Nu, and that's a REALLY bad matchup.
To further prove my point, there was a SBO a while back where a single Japanese player playing Q(Street Fighter 3: Third Strike) took out the entire American team, who were playing Ken and Chun-Li. That doesn't make Q good(He's the third worst character in the game, Ken and Chun are 3rd and 2nd best, respectively) it just means that the player, Kuroda, was that much better then the American team.
So yes, Tager IS the worst character in the game. He has an uphill battle against every single character except for himself, and while most of those aren't really that big of a deal, he also has the two worst matchups in the entire game to deal with, and that's really rough. He's still fun to play as though :3
Posted 2 years ago # -
I'm going to disagree, given the 80% combos or 100% semi-combos that I've pulled off with Tager. (Atomic Collider + Magnetism doesn't technically count as a combo, but it's very rare for someone to out prioritize it in that split second)
That's not to say that you're specifically wrong, because opinions are hard to quantify in that way, but I believe you're incorrect.
That said, you're right. He is fun to play.
Posted 2 years ago # -
Gen Eric Gui
MemberYeah, that combo doesn't work on anyone who knows what they're doing. First off, if you don't tech the final hit, the magnetism doesn't pull you. Second, every single character can mash A and break it, which can possibly lead to a combo on Tager; and third, you can either back tech or double jump to escape the magnetic pull and break it, which for some characters means a free combo. It's -occasionally- worth it to stick it out just to see if it lands, but against anyone who knows what they're doing the best you can hope for is one loop of it.
Trust me, I know my high-level fighting game stuff. Tager is the worst character. This is not my opinion, this is the cold, hard data from actual gameplay talking.
Posted 2 years ago # -
ThePretender
MemberHey, Continuum Shift is swinging the nerf/buff on the characters left and right. Still WAAAAAAAY too early to tell, but the way it's shaping up, the top tier characters (Nu, Ara, Rachel) will getting nerfed and it looks like Tager's getting a boost.
Head in the clouds, feet on the ground and everything in between is somewhere I know not.Posted 2 years ago # -
Lord Halfrican
MemberAs a side note I would like to point out that I made something of an error. I used the other matchups in my example as nothing more than an example. I know nothing of the matchups themselves I was merely using them as an example so say how each character plays against each other. That being said I was wondering why Aksys would make such an impossible matchup as tager Nu. Not that it can't be won just that for it to happen is simply monumental.
Posted 2 years ago # -
Gen Eric Gui
Member"and it looks like Tager's getting a boost. "
Tager's not getting a boost. He's getting rockets attached to him and the rockets have their own rockets. If the list of changes that's been posted elsewhere are to be believed, Tager could be top tier material now.
Posted 2 years ago # -
Halfrican: They are nerfing Nu in Continuum shift for exactly the reason that some people simply have a ridiculously hard time against her. Fighting games don't tend to have patches that balance gameplay like MMOs or RTS games, they tend to release new versions with more characters, better balance, etc. So just wait for it, and your prayers will be answered.
Gen Eric Gui: I understand that things feel fairly certain when you reach a certain level of gameplay. I can only disagree with your analysis. If I had one of the consoles of my own, or if there was a PC version, I would love to match up against you some time and see your cold hard facts for myself. ^^
@ The Pretender and Gen Eric: I don't know where you're getting the information on Rachel and Ara getting nerfed, and Tager getting boosted. From the japanese magazine article I saw, all I heard was Arakune was getting more ways to curse, Rachel was getting a new super, and Carl was getting a new projectile. I'd love to know more, if you two are willing to share the source :)
Posted 2 years ago # -
Gen Eric Gui
MemberThe location test for the new arcade version is out in several places, Dustloop and a few other sites have all been playing them fairly heavily and writing down all the changes. Nu, Arakune, Rachel, and Jin all got hit with the nerf bat really hard, and Tager is almost a new character he has so many buffs.
And Tager being shitty has nothing to do with my word. And if it was just my word then you'd have a case for me being wrong. But the community at large, the people who play in tournaments and compete in SBO and EVO and what have you are the ones producing the numbers and stats. In the actual gameplay tests Tager was shown to have a clear disadvantage against every singe character. This is from hundreds upon hundreds upon hundreds of matches played by almost as many different players, and they all point to Tager being the worst character. Does it mean he can't win? No, it just means that a Tager player has to be that much better and that much more precise and careful in any given match then if s/he were to play as a different character.
I mean, do you even know what it means to be low tier in the first place?
Posted 2 years ago # -
ThePretender
MemberGen Eric Gui said:
"and it looks like Tager's getting a boost. "Tager's not getting a boost. He's getting rockets attached to him and the rockets have their own rockets. If the list of changes that's been posted elsewhere are to be believed, Tager could be top tier material now.
Rocket-propelled GIGANTIC TAGER?
Head in the clouds, feet on the ground and everything in between is somewhere I know not.Posted 2 years ago # -
Gen Eric Gui said:Does it mean he can't win? No, it just means that a Tager player has to be that much better and that much more precise and careful in any given match then if s/he were to play as a different character.
I mean, do you even know what it means to be low tier in the first place?
Yeah, it means it's more fun winning with them. Like Rose in SF4 or Shino in Gekitou. Or /SAKURA/ in Gekitou. That's embarassing for the other guy.
... But Tager is made of awesome. And will be made of more awesome with stronger magnetism. Tager and Bang are so win, even if they completely sucked, I'd main them. And they don't. Most matches I pick Tager I win, particularly against all those rushdown characters everyone loves so much. And against Noel. Poor Noel.
If in gameplay at a higher level than mine, Tager has disadvantages, then that's fine. But to say he's the worst character is to imply that he is in some way bad. And really, that's not something I can get behind. Tiers are for people that like to drain the fun out of the game and make it all about the math. I've never really liked the idea of them, and I've also never found a 'low-tier' character that I couldn't use to decimate every and anyone I played against anywhere.
... Excepting Pichu. Noone's perfect.
Posted 2 years ago # -
Gen Eric Gui
MemberFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF
High level play != "removing the fun from the game". High level players wouldn't PLAY the game at all if they didn't have fun with it. The entire point of tiers is to help you understand your character so you know how to play them better. By understanding that Tager has limitations, you can learn to work around them and create better strategies for defeating different opponents. If I go into each match just swinging willy-nilly, I'm going to get beaten every time, and that's no fun at all.
And picking a low-tier character because he's low-tier is just stupid. As stupid as picking a high-tier character just because they're high-tier. It's a rediculous way to play and it's part of what's ruining fighting games.
But why am I even bothering, it's obvious that you aren't listening, since I already pointed out that low-tier doesn't mean "can't win", it just means that it's harder to win. Tager can win matches, obviously, he can win matches against Nu even. On average, he wins about 3 matches out of every 10 against an Nu player of equal skill. But just because he -can- win doesn't mean it's easy for him, and it doesn't mean he's objectively good when other characters can win much more easily. That's what it means to be low-tier, that you have to work a lot harder for your wins.
I mean, here's an example from Guilty Gear. In XX, Sol can start his dust loop and do 75% health off of pretty much any poke he can throw out. That means if he so much as touches you, you're pretty much guaranteed to lose a huge portion of your life unless you burst. And beyond that, the loop is incredibly easy to perform, so it's very unlikely that a moderately skilled player will mess it up, so the damage IS going to go through. On the flipside, Anji has pretty much nothing going for him. Most of his good combos are very situational, and he can't do Dust Loop damage even with meter usage. He has to work very hard just to land a hit, and when he lands that hit, he can't take advantage of it to even a portion of the level that Sol can. That's why he's low tier.
Low tier does not really mean your character is "bad", it just means they are hard to use effectively, and they require a lot more effort on the playe's part to win matches. Anjis have won tourneys before, and have placed in high-ranking matches, just like Tager placed in SBO because Mike Z is an amazing player. But that doesn't mean either of them are good, it just means that their players were awesome.
Please, don't make me repeat this again. This is really not a very hard concept.
Posted 2 years ago # -
First, there's no call for rudeness, I stated my opinion, you stated yours, we clearly disagree. I accept that characters can be less well-balanced than others, just not that they are worse than others. Not in this game, anyway.
You only see win charts and gameplay mechanics, I enjoy playing Tager, Bang, and Carl because I enjoy playing as them the most, and Litchi whenever anyone picks Tao. For obvious reasons. So to me, those four are the best characters. How much fun you have playing a character is an abstract value, whilst their mechanical advantages are more concrete values. Obviously, your tiers are based on how much likelihood a character has of winning. My opinions are based on how much enjoyment I get out of playing them, which is a combination of things that /does/ include their chance of winning, but is not remotely limited by it. Even if a Bang victory was 1 out of 10, I'd still play him for the song.
I'm not arguing against the existence of tiers in the way you view them, but rather against the way you prioritize them. It was that kind of following that made almost every MvC2 player choose Mag, Storm, Psy, and made them all vulnerable to my Spidey, Blackheart, Doom,or my friend's Amingo , Cammy, SonSon.
Try not to talk down to people that disagree with you, it's not necessary. By the same token that you think people like me 'are ruining fighting games', I think that reducing a character to tiers or numbers is missing the point.
The short term objective is to win, the long term is to have fun. Improving your game is part of that, but not all. I hope you haven't lost sight of that.
Posted 2 years ago # -
Gen Eric Gui
MemberI wouldn't get rude if you would actually read my post and see what I'm saying, which you obviously still aren't. I'm saying one thing, and then you apparently read it backwards and accuse me of things I never said; it's very aggrivating.
I have no idea where you're getting the idea that I "prioritize" tiers, bucause I've already said that I think choosing characters based on their tier is stupid, whether it's picking a character because they're low or because they're high. I PLAY TAGER BECAUSE I LIKE TO PLAY AS HIM, but that doesn't mean that I also don't freely admit that he is a terrible character gameplay-wise(because he is). I also play Carl, Haku-men, and Ragna because I like them, and I fully understand where each of them lies on the tiers as well, specifically because I like playing as them and want to know how to play them better!
I play Dudley, Makoto, and Q in Street Fighter 3 because I like them, but I also understand that Q is clearly a worse character then the other two. It doesn't stop me from playing him, it's not my reason for playing him, but I still admit the fact that he isn't very good because admitting that fact allows me to see his weaknesses more clearly and play him more to his fullest ability. If I just walked around saying "Q IS AWESOME BECAUSE I LIKE HIM, BEST CHARACTER EVER" I would never grow as a player, because if I can't admit his faults I can't learn to play around them.
This is not a difficult concept.
Posted 2 years ago # -
Ah, and here we come to it. You see, I understand a character's faults, Tager's, Carl's, etc., naturally. I don't really need to rank them in tiers to understand their strengths and weaknesses, it just makes sense to me. So when you say that you 'understand where each of them lies on the tiers' so that you can learn how to play them better, it doesn't click with me.
I guess that's where you and I aren't communicating. When I see someone rank characters in tiers, I am displeased, for when people boil things down to the math like that, the community that's doing so always ends up drifting towards Mag-Storm-Psy, or Yun/Chun-li (Not that Yun and Chun Li aren't awesome), and I think that's the end of fun.
Clearly, you're not one of those people that drifts towards High Tier, if you play Tager and Q, so if I had to be honest, my problem wouldn't be with you, but with people who boil characters down to tiers and then drift towards the 'best'.
So it looks like we're not really arguing, but simply taking two different stances on the same viewpoint.
I improve my character every single time I play, mainly by losing and seeing what I could have done better. I still don't think that a set of 'tiers' is needed to improve, and that tiers will cause some people to avoid the 'low tier' characters. So I still disagree with the making of them. However, it seems this is the only point I disagree with you on. So I think the argument is pretty much over, now that we've sussed that out.
You look at characters in tiers because you feel it helps you improve your game. I feel the opposite, and don't like grouping them into tiers, despite the fact that I'm always improving my game as well. I would say that amounts to an irreconcilable difference, but I don't think we need to have any hostility over it.
We're just different. ... ... Except I play Tager, Carl, Dudley, and Makoto, too. Details. Sorry to have caused you frustration by expressing my points. I assure you that I read your posts, and apologize for not realizing sooner that my argument wasn't with you, but simply with the idea of a tier-rating in the first place.
Posted 2 years ago #
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