Blazblue high tier game: Cheap combos or Expected behavior ?

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Blazblue high tier game: Cheap combos or Expected behavior ?

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Started 1 year ago by mokuu
Latest reply from GuardianE

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mokuu
Member

First topic, thumbs up :)
But on a more serious note, ive had this discussion with people from work and other friends who play the game and id like to hear what the people and devs here have to say on the topic.

Looking and playing blazblue on a high tier level(online matches and such) feels like the winner is decided by whoever has the longest combo string which aside from doing alot of damage - bypasses the opponent's air recovery and resets the damage/combo count to inflict regular damage all over again.
And that kinda gets a tad bit "frustrating" and not really entertaining in a sense.

So far i haven't seen many ways to get pass those methods aside from the limited area burst and a possible gap of invinsibility frame attack (Inferno divider, light attack) after a "Quick defend" (that white block thingamajiggi). But so far, if you are hit then get stuck in a combo, there is practically no way out, no button mashing to recovery, analog stick rolling etc.

So that kinda makes the high tier gameplay a bit dull, per say, since the longest- most abusive combo wins in this case, yet lets take a game like street fighter or King of fighters where, there is less opportunity to "mass combo" someone and you gotta rely on a bit more strategy and super move/evasion tactics.

Anyone found something out, got some input, experiences?

Posted 1 year ago #
Griefy
Member

After a certain amount of hits you are able to get out a few combos but some stuff such as those Mission 10 Combos are pretty much end all be all but take serious set ups to do and do not work for all characters. Bang for example has a lot of tools but there are many of which that naturally just wont work on the smaller characters (and Hazama). Even a bigger character like Tager has specific combo's that will only work when fighting him due to his size. Also, you should be trying not to be caught in these strings to begin with by playing safe and not doing anything hastily.

On a side note, Makoto's 5A and 2A is safer than Johnny Depp's acting career. >.< Hate with a passion.

S-I-S-I-G-A-M-I
Shishigami Bang Bang!
PSN: OnesOwnGrief

Posted 1 year ago #
bucklemyshoe
Member

are you new to fighting games?

seriously, resets have been a common tactic since forever. lol

Posted 1 year ago #
mokuu
Member

Griefy said:
After a certain amount of hits you are able to get out a few combos but some stuff such as those Mission 10 Combos are pretty much end all be all but take serious set ups to do and do not work for all characters. Also, you should be trying not to be caught in these strings to begin with by playing safe and not doing anything hastily.

There's somewhat of an issue there:
Of course blocking strings can help against some of the pressure moves being dished out but as always - easier said than done when including overheads, low hits and grabs. Of course, thats indeed a good option.
But the main problem resides in the situation that occurs where the player is caught in a combo with recovery bypass moves and eventually left in the "drop the controller already" situation.

bucklemyshoe said:
...resets have been a common tactic since forever. lol

Sure --- Ok, BUT, the issue here is semi infinite to infinite resetable strings of attack leaving no real chance of escape and ultimately ending into corner raping. {All that in blunt words per say}
Now compared to, lets say, the SF4 Akuma reset string, where you may go up to 12-16 hits with that string alone and finish it with a raging demon. When the string reaches 8-10, the damage is practically minimal, maybe less than 5% due to the damage reducing as the hit count raises - Now unlike blazblue, Akuma cannot hit the opponent while they are down in order to bring them into an air combo and this using an double air fireball after an air-tatsu, to bypass the opponent's air recovery and bring them down into another string of combo with a completely resetted damage count and leaving the opponent free for another, most likely identical, combo.

And, for comparaison sake, we try to determine what could potentially be the factor of those situation, it somewhat comes down to a few unique gameplay feature within blazblue which arent really present in certain other fighting games such as Street fighter or KOF :

1. You can hit an opponent on the ground.
2. Ability to rapid cancel and create more advanced resetable combo strings.
3. Air juggle has no hit-count limit

What do you think ?

Posted 1 year ago #
njiska
Member

To be fair i've had my ass kicked all over and I just don't have a problem with it. I got caught in a ridiculous tauntloop yesterday and while it did frustrate me, ultimately I could have broken it if i learned how. It's all about Practice.

Posted 1 year ago #
mokuu
Member

njiska said:
To be fair i've had my ass kicked all over and I just don't have a problem with it. I got caught in a ridiculous tauntloop yesterday and while it did frustrate me, ultimately I could have broken it if i learned how. It's all about Practice.

The prob is, there is practically no way to break those types of loops aside from : Not being caught at all (by the first hit, etc) Or do one of your own, but it feels like its ultimately results in : Whoever does his semi-infinite/infinite combo first, wins.

Posted 1 year ago #
Hollow_Ninja
Member

People seem to overestimate the importance of combos. You really don't need to know combos to be good at fighting games. It's more important to know how to keep pressure.

Posted 1 year ago #
GuardianE
Member

mokuu said:
The prob is, there is practically no way to break those types of loops aside from : Not being caught at all (by the first hit, etc) Or do one of your own, but it feels like its ultimately results in : Whoever does his semi-infinite/infinite combo first, wins.

Once thing you have to remember is that those combos generally take a very long time to master and those combos generally require precise inputs. Sure, on a high level, the game devolves into that, but I don't really see a problem with it. Take a look at SFTurbo. That game ultimately devolves into throw loops and projectile wars on higher levels. Or look at Street Fighter IV. It usually revolves around who can combo into Ultra the most consistently. Obviously, I'm dumbing it down a LOT, but I think you get the gist of what I mean.

More than anything else, what seems to separate an excellent player from a good player in BlazBlue is a solid defense. Anyone can rush down given the proper tools, but providing a good defense is incredibly difficult in this game. Are combos important? In BlazBlue, absolutely. You should know the bread and butter of your main. Finding ways of connecting into that combo, and keeping pressure is the heart of the game. But the other important part is knowing your options defensively. Barrier blocking, Barrier Bursting, Insta Blocking, Reversal Moves... these are all at your disposal for a reason. Learn to use them a bit better and it'll make all the difference.

Moku, also you stated that air combos have no hit count limit. That's actually wrong. Each successive hit you perform decreases the hit stun on your enemy before the next move comes out, eventually making it impossible to continue the combo. I guess what I'm trying to say is, infinites are literally impossible in this game (except maybe some of Arakune's curse combos... but curse doesn't last forever).

Posted 1 year ago #
mokuu
Member

GuardianE said:
Once thing you have to remember is that those combos generally take a very long time to master and those combos generally require precise inputs. Sure, on a high level, the game devolves into that, but I don't really see a problem with it.

That can be taken as quite unfair and quite unbalanced in a sense. Since lets be honest, a 1 combo string match isnt really fun for anyone. One player is caught in the combo and attempting to recover desperately while intercepting a special move on their recovery period and the other player is kinda repeating a pattern over and over again once the first hit is landed.

GuardianE said: Take a look at SFTurbo. That game ultimately devolves into throw loops and projectile wars on higher levels. Or look at Street Fighter IV. It usually revolves around who can combo into Ultra the most consistently. Obviously, I'm dumbing it down a LOT, but I think you get the gist of what I mean.

Lets take that SF4 example again: Sf4's high tier gameplay has "projectile war", spacing with "footsies", invincibility frames, combo into ultra, focus dash in or out, Ex priority into ultra and so on and so on. When you see a high tier SF4 match, there will be very rare instances where you will see long strings of combos (due to damage decreasing) and hit count resetting (since grabbing resets it.) The other player always has a chance to get back "up" before his HP goes down to 70-50%. The only thing causing an opposition to getting back up are the famous "cross ups" but even then, you can block in reverse to stop that and ur back in the game.
With blazblue, the high tier gameplay really seems like the longuest combo that uses multiple ways to bypass the other player's recovery period wins, whether its a grab, hit on the ground or delayed special move.

GuardianE said:But the other important part is knowing your options defensively. Barrier blocking, Barrier Bursting, Insta Blocking, Reversal Moves... these are all at your disposal for a reason. Learn to use them a bit better and it'll make all the difference.

Thats all good but the game doesn't give you much defensive option while you're in a combo, aside from the limited barrier burst, the pushback - on - hit is rendered useless by the ability to run, thus no matter how far you back you knocked, the attacker can run and follow up, nor combo breaks (hahaha it'dd be the day when KI influences Aksys but a 20-30% heat combo breaker could help a bit.)

GuardianE said:Each successive hit you perform decreases the hit stun on your enemy before the next move comes out, eventually making it impossible to continue the combo. I guess what I'm trying to say is, infinites are literally impossible in this game (except maybe some of Arakune's curse combos... but curse doesn't last forever).

Now consider the existence of delayed move and moves bringing you back on the ground, such as belial edge into "Ground grab special" or Icecart into air grab *freeze*, maybe even litchi's onegaishi - First hit gets you up "Recovery time" Staff comes down and lets keep the dance going, whoooooh ;).

Thinking about it,stepping into the high tier zone kinda feels like playing a fictional Killer Instinct version without combo breakers, dont get hit once or eat an ultra combo. No joke, it really feels like that, possibly the ability to be hit on ground added with the massive amount of resets and recovery bypasses. Kinda gets to be a grind over other games.

Posted 1 year ago #
GuardianE
Member

mokuu said:
That can be taken as quite unfair and quite unbalanced in a sense. Since lets be honest, a 1 combo string match isnt really fun for anyone. One player is caught in the combo and attempting to recover desperately while intercepting a special move on their recovery period and the other player is kinda repeating a pattern over and over again once the first hit is landed.

Now consider the existence of delayed move and moves bringing you back on the ground, such as belial edge into "Ground grab special" or Icecart into air grab *freeze*, maybe even litchi's onegaishi - First hit gets you up "Recovery time" Staff comes down and lets keep the dance going, whoooooh ;).

Thinking about it,stepping into the high tier zone kinda feels like playing a fictional Killer Instinct version without combo breakers, dont get hit once or eat an ultra combo. No joke, it really feels like that, possibly the ability to be hit on ground added with the massive amount of resets and recovery bypasses. Kinda gets to be a grind over other games.

I don't think it's unfair or unbalanced at all, since every character has them. It's really up to you to learn them. It's just a gameplay difference. It doesn't mean that one system's better than the other. Look at Marvel Vs. Capcom 2. It's unbalanced as hell and you can perform literal infinites. Doesn't stop it from being played on a competitive level to this day... years and years after release.

I agree that I oversimplified SFIV's combat system. I said that in my post. I love SFIV, and I consider myself pretty good at it. What you're searching for are "mind games" and if you watch high level BlazBlue play and don't see any mind games going on, you're just blind to it. The fact remains. Rarely do combos do more than 5,000 damage. Those that do more than 5,000 are incredibly situational and difficult to set up. By listing those fundamental gameplay elements of SFIV like Focus Attacks, you're implying that BlazBlue lacks those things. You're wrong. You have Rapid Cancels, Fatal Counters, Counterhits, Invincibility Frames, Instablocks, Barrier Blocks, Guard Primers, etc, etc, etc... then you could go into each person's drive and argue how it changes the game for them, like Tager's magnetism or Rachel's Silpheed. Both fighting systems are very robust. I don't think it's fair to BlazBlue to try and water it down.

Also, your last point is still an invalid one. Resets are one thing. Infinites do not exist in this game. Period. I'm not trying to start a debate because there isn't one. That's simply a fact because of how the combo system actually works. It's designed that way. Knocking someone to the ground does not change anything. You can still tech out after a certain number of hits. It's how the game was designed. The combo count will blackbeat eventually because the hit stun will be so reduced that absolutely NO move can follow. You generally don't see Blackbeats in tournament level play because pros know the best ending for their combo, and so always finish it in a way that gives them the strongest advantage (ideally).

Ultimately, let me ask you this. You're arguing that one giant combo isn't fun for anyone. Are you actually playing anyone good enough to do this? Videos might not seem quite as exciting (though I really beg to differ. I've seen some fantastic and very nailbiting tournament vids of BlazBlueCS), but are you on a pro level where you lose after getting hit with a single poke? If not, I'd say that it's not really relevant to how fun it is. If you are, however, and NOT having fun... then I'd say you might like other fighting game systems better and should stick to those.

If it helps, look at it this way. Those giant combos? They're Ultra Combos that you have to manually press in and time (considering how Distortion Drives in this game do pitiful damage compared to Ultra Combos). Does it seem as unfair anymore? Just because you're being combo'd longer and possibly losing morale doesn't mean it's all that different. You got SRK-> FADC-> Metsu Hadoken. You can't press any buttons in the middle of that to change anything... and you just lost over half your health. You should've blocked that SRK. You got hit by Bang's standing A? Oop. As long as they have the manual dexterity to perform it, you're losing 1/3-1/2 of your health. Same dealie, SFIV just dealt that half health damage over a period of 6 seconds vs. BlazBlue's 12. Not a perfect analogy, I recognize, but I think it serves a purpose.

EDIT: Sorry for all the stealth edits, and I apologize this post got out of hand. I kept thinking of things to add. Gomen! Basically, I mean to say that the system is different, but certainly not less deep/technical than a slower paced fighter.

Posted 1 year ago #
ZP
Member

You're simply not good enough and probably fight players that are better than you.

Also, online is not fought on a high level of play.

Harsh maybe, but it's the truth.

Posted 1 year ago #
DJ Daishi
Member

Griefy said:
After a certain amount of hits you are able to get out a few combos but some stuff such as those Mission 10 Combos are pretty much end all be all but take serious set ups to do and do not work for all characters. Bang for example has a lot of tools but there are many of which that naturally just wont work on the smaller characters (and Hazama)

his combos work on pretty much everyone in CS. I even get his 7.5k FRKZ combo on Carl. which is one of the reasons he's mad broken.

-Mr.StayFree ( ' 3')

Resident Fighting Game Troll- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=411Dn23SEGo&feature=related

Posted 1 year ago #
mokuu
Member

DJ Daishi said:
his combos work on pretty much everyone in CS. I even get his 7.5k FRKZ combo on Carl. which is one of the reasons he's mad broken.

Thats kind of an interesting situation as if you get in a fight with a Bigger character, you may 100% positively get the upper hand due to a big hit box being more convenient for that kind of combo. But if this works at 70% to 80% effectiveness on small characters such as carl, woah, damn.

GuardianE said:
I don't think it's unfair or unbalanced at all, since every character has them. It's really up to you to learn them. It's just a gameplay difference. It doesn't mean that one system's better than the other. Look at Marvel Vs. Capcom 2. It's unbalanced as hell and you can perform literal infinites. Doesn't stop it from being played on a competitive level to this day... years and years after release.

Big different with MVC2 is that 90% of the character cast does not have the ability to pull off theses long strings of combo from one end of the screen to another - Solo character on Solo character - By passing recovery states to restart a combo till the lifebar is fully drained.

GuardianE said:Rarely do combos do more than 5,000 damage. Those that do more than 5,000 are incredibly situational and difficult to set up. By listing those fundamental gameplay elements of SFIV like Focus Attacks, you're implying that BlazBlue lacks those things. You're wrong. You have Rapid Cancels, Fatal Counters, Counterhits, Invincibility Frames, Instablocks, Barrier Blocks, Guard Primers, etc,

But you don't "Get" to the chance play mind games when you are stuck in the previously mentioned combo types. The only thing left at that point is the limited barrier burst why again, has to be used at a critical point and can only be used once per round in most situations thus when its gone, better not get caught or its KIA.

GuardianE said:Also, your last point is still an invalid one. Resets are one thing. Infinites do not exist in this game. Period. I'm not trying to start a debate because there isn't one. That's simply a fact because of how the combo system actually works. It's designed that way.

Theses resets lead to infinites/semi infinites, if the game doesnt give you more defensive tools while stuck in-combo state, then you cant really do much about getting hit aside from desperately mashing buttons to finally recover straight into another combo. Dont mash? sure, stay down to get back up at a good time, but wait, the other guy does a grab/picks you up from the ground and does another chain, now can i recover, oh wait, straight into another chain, Damn, no use holding that controller so tightly.

GuardianE said:Ultimately, let me ask you this. You're arguing that one giant combo isn't fun for anyone. Are you actually playing anyone good enough to do this? Videos might not seem quite as exciting (though I really beg to differ. I've seen some fantastic and very nailbiting tournament vids of BlazBlueCS), but are you on a pro level where you lose after getting hit with a single poke? If not, I'd say that it's not really relevant to how fun it is. If you are, however, and NOT having fun... then I'd say you might like other fighting game systems better and should stick to those.

Ill be honest, when it comes to BB and playing at work of with friends, there's no real fun in long combo string - corner raping - Gadget finger etc. Mostly since people will eventually get pissed off and wont play and also it kinda feels as one sided as a 5 year old punching a speeding truck. When it comes to tournament vids, i dont often get the nailbitting effect since alot of it boils down to one long string of hits brings the other character to the corner then the other character may miraculously barrier burst and do his long string and whoever abuses the most wins. Sorry, its just a vibe i get from those tournaments.

GuardianE said:If it helps, look at it this way. Those giant combos? They're Ultra Combos that you have to manually press in and time (considering how Distortion Drives in this game do pitiful damage compared to Ultra Combos). Does it seem as unfair anymore?

Man, thats sounds so wrong on many levels hahahahahaah But i might have to make a parody of that at one point.
Now imagine :
Round 1 - Fight
Shinkuuuuuuuu Hadoken !!!!
Gyro drive smasher !!!! intolow kick into Light Canon spike into High kick into Light canon spike, into Spin drive smasher into Light canon spike into Gyro drive smasher. --KO
Free supers and ultras, that would be the funniest thing to see in an SF4 version, aside from the training mode. But at that point, the damage count would be zero since it would go over 12 hits unless the grab Gyro's finishing hit, counts as a grab and the low kick resets the whole thing. :D

The ultra thing probably wasnt the best analogy but just imagine the possibilities, we gotta pitch this to capcom for somekind of hyper mode or Aksys vs Capcom.

GuardianE said:
Basically, I mean to say that the system is different, but certainly not less deep/technical than a slower paced fighter.

The main focus was never about calling out blazblue as a less technical fighting game, there are alot of technical elements and the drive system is just one part of it. The main focus was how the high tier gameplay mostly feels like the winner is decided by whoever has the longest combo string which aside from doing alot of damage - bypasses the opponent's air recovery and resets the damage/combo count to inflict regular damage all over again.
And that kinda gets a tad bit "frustrating" and not really entertaining in a sense.

Not saying that BB sucks or anything, just discussing about that particular aspect. (Which is why hateful and belittling posts are ignored for most parts ;) )

Ps: All good for the stealth edits, we all do it anyway XD

Posted 1 year ago #
jt4mtb
Member

The thing is actual reset points are just another form of a mixup. At such points, the defender (person on the receiving end of a combo) does have options to get out. Going back to your quick example of "Dont mash? sure, stay down to get back up at a good time, but wait, the other guy does a grab/picks you up from the ground and does another chain", if it was an actual reset point in the string, the defender has the various tech options for wakeup: with some room to move, he could back roll creating space between them; if the attacker is dashing forward to continue, forward roll past him; or just neutral tech (which is completely strike invincible until you can block). It's defenders choice on which to use depending on what they anticipate the attacker to do, and when to use it. Choose wrong or take too long deciding, you get reset; choose right and you're back in a controllable situation.

Part of upper level/high end play in any fighting game is knowing your opponents options. In BB, that includes knowing an opponent's attack strings and where reset points are. When at a reset point, it goes into mind games where the defender has to try anticipating which option the attacker is going to do and pick a suitable response. Pick right, you're no longer taking damage, blocking, and or get a counter hit (using reversal dp or similar); pick wrong and you're in a new string.

It's not much different than a cross up in SF or a traditional fighting game. Sure, you can block the opposite direction if your opponent goes for a cross up; but what if the attacker made his jump ambiguous enough to look like it's going to cross up, but doesn't? You chose wrong, and you're now in a new attack string! One of the best examples of this is Vega/claw in SFII: once he get a hard knockdown on his opponent, he can set up cross up games with flying barcelona attacks. Guess wrong on which side he'll come down on, you're taking a knockdown, facing another barcelona attack on wakeup, and trying to anticipate which side to block again.

Going back to BB, as an example Carl has numerous reset combos, a number of which involve his opponent still standing on the ground. At the reset point when the combo count ends, it's the defender's perogative to know there's an opening there, that you can begin normal blocking, anticipate whether Carl will go for low hit or overhead mixup to begin a fresh combo, and block appropriately (or reversal move if availabe).

--JT

Posted 1 year ago #
GuardianE
Member

Big different with MVC2 is that 90% of the character cast does not have the ability to pull off theses long strings of combo from one end of the screen to another - Solo character on Solo character - By passing recovery states to restart a combo till the lifebar is fully drained.

I don't see a difference at all. We were talking about high tier gameplay, right? That means 10 of the 56 character cast of MvC2. Those 10 have juggles, resets, near infinites, if not straight up infinites.

But you don't "Get" to the chance play mind games when you are stuck in the previously mentioned combo types. The only thing left at that point is the limited barrier burst why again, has to be used at a critical point and can only be used once per round in most situations thus when its gone, better not get caught or its KIA.

No, mindgames are primarily before the first hit connects. They're definitely there. Usually it happens 4-5 times per round on high level play. You've probably been watching some super boring, one sided matches, because I've definitely seen some strong/smart plays on Youtube.

Theses resets lead to infinites/semi infinites, if the game doesnt give you more defensive tools while stuck in-combo state, then you cant really do much about getting hit aside from desperately mashing buttons to finally recover straight into another combo. Dont mash? sure, stay down to get back up at a good time, but wait, the other guy does a grab/picks you up from the ground and does another chain, now can i recover, oh wait, straight into another chain, Damn, no use holding that controller so tightly.

I'm sorry, but that's really just not the case. JT was absolutely right in that you can liken it to a knockdown-> crossup in Street Fighter. That is the GOAL. To offensively limit options for the defensive player. Once the offensive player has momentum, the defensive player has a serious disadvantage on the reset. You should notice this a lot in high level Street Fighter IV play. Just because you can't hit the opponent while they're down doesn't mean that the downed player is safe... at all. They're in a very dangerous position where they have to make a decision, very similarly to a character who is in the middle of a reset in BlazBlue. You say that the defensive player doesn't have many options, but he has more options than the Street Fighter character does in that same situation. Think about Akuma's vortex, meaty hits, safe jumps, cross ups, walk up throws, reversal baits, etc, etc.

Man, thats sounds so wrong on many levels hahahahahaah But i might have to make a parody of that at one point.
Now imagine :
Round 1 - Fight
Shinkuuuuuuuu Hadoken !!!!
Gyro drive smasher !!!! intolow kick into Light Canon spike into High kick into Light canon spike, into Spin drive smasher into Light canon spike into Gyro drive smasher. --KO
Free supers and ultras, that would be the funniest thing to see in an SF4 version, aside from the training mode. But at that point, the damage count would be zero since it would go over 12 hits unless the grab Gyro's finishing hit, counts as a grab and the low kick resets the whole thing. :D

The ultra thing probably wasnt the best analogy but just imagine the possibilities, we gotta pitch this to capcom for somekind of hyper mode or Aksys vs Capcom.

I said it was a flawed analogy, but people were whining about how Ultras were overpowered when Street Fighter IV first came out. People whined how Sagat could take away 75% of your health with an easy combo (and remember you're guaranteed to earn Ultra level 2 once per round unless you dominate, so I don't see the analogy being THAT flawed). SRK-> FADC ->Roundhouse-> Roundhouse-> Ultra.

Based on your fight with friends/coworkers, it sounds like you're getting frustrated/bored with scrubby spam fighting that seems to be effective (like gadget finger->360). It's not. Try learning the counters to those moves, what works and what doesn't work as a reversal.

As for tournament vids, since you seem to hate long combos, watch something with MikeZ playing as Tager. Tager has tiny combos. No one can say that Tager has an infinite without sounding incredibly silly.

Posted 1 year ago #
Griefy
Member

DJ Daishi said:
his combos work on pretty much everyone in CS. I even get his 7.5k FRKZ combo on Carl. which is one of the reasons he's mad broken.

>.> Yeah, I think FRKZ in general is broken but it takes serious control to even use FRKZ in the first place.

S-I-S-I-G-A-M-I
Shishigami Bang Bang!
PSN: OnesOwnGrief

Posted 1 year ago #
camp0rface
Member

I think you just really need to practice some more. I myself watched many many blazblue videos of kaqn, buppa, dora, etc. to learn combos and played many hours in training mode and lost many rounds before I got good. Longer combos don't always mean more damage either just take a look at how much Hakumen and Tager combos do. Like what GuardianE said try learning counters and reversals. Hakumen loves IB-->D-counter.

Posted 1 year ago #
mokuu
Member

Whew, took a while to reply, had some sketches to do for clients.

Alright, took some time to read the latest post and here’s a current analysis of the whole situation:

Now during those crazy high tier combos, the player DOES have a few instances where they can get use defensive rolls/options (not including burst) to evade a reset that could take them for another 15 hit ride.

Now the main issue is that these instances are few and rare.

Now this wouldn't so much of an issue IF missing/failing theses few rare dodging instances didn’t result into losing half/the rest of your HP. The long combo mechanic reset mechanic and damage reset factors massively outweigh the defensive options given to the player in such situations.

Now there has been some comparison to street fighter with implication that the crossups and ultra moves are equally dangerous to the BB resets. I could not disagree more :).

Ultra moves are an earned via damage received and Damage absorbed (focus dash etc). Then pulled off and if connected successfully, will deal a single string of damage without the possibility of being followed up {In most cases} and often pulled off/seen mid-match (due to the conditions required in getting the ultra moves).

- Ultra moves are easy to see and parry if not combo-ed properly. (Kind of like wild Distortion drives)

- If missed, then they cannot be pulled off again depending on the health situation in the match. (Unlike combo resets)

- Ultra moves cannot be performed at the beginning of the match. (Unlike combo resets)

To resume it all : Ultra moves have a more specific requirement than the long BB combo strings in order to be executed. Thus, this cannot be used as a valid argument of comparison.

Also, the SF crossup/wake up game is much more easily resolved than the BB instance:

-Block the other side

-DP (flowchart ;P)

- Counter grab if walked unto.

Now even if hit and caught in any of these situations, the consequence wouldn’t cost over half their health bar unless chained into a super or ultra move and even then, this wouldn’t occurs very often during a run (or to be straight on - As often as BB : Straight from the beginning of the round.)

And damn, time cutshort, gotta head home but checkout the last line of this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oUyABUx4ExM&feature=player_embedded

And im not posting this outta spite, i like their idea and goals, its just hard to balance it in the end.

Posted 1 year ago #
jt4mtb
Member

mokuu said:
Now this wouldn't so much of an issue IF missing/failing theses few rare dodging instances didn’t result into losing half/the rest of your HP.

Except that you're exaggerating the amount of damage that an average BB combo does. Considering that the average character life bar in BBCS is 11k, you're implying that typical combo strings will take 5.5k+ which is far from the norm. Most of the cast's BnB combos average around the 3k mark if not less. The only time you see combos breech the 4k+ mark is on counter hit/fatal counter, with meter for a DD or RC, and/or very special situations.

mokuu said:
Also, the SF crossup/wake up game is much more easily resolved than the BB instance:

-Block the other side

-DP (flowchart ;P)

- Counter grab if walked unto.

And this is such a gross simplification of the wakeup/crossup game. Block the other side? Again, ambiguous jump-ins that looks like a cross over, but doesn't (like a dive kick just before crossing over). DP? A Safe jump (a jump-in meaty that recovers early enough to block any reversal) will leave that DP blocked and you open for combo/super/ultra/pick your poison. Counter grab? A smart player would play footsies by walking barely into throw range looking like they're going to throw, but then step back to make you whiff or option select throw/crouching lk.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fpe1TtfCeu4
Watch this Seth just dance around his opponent with cross ups, fake cross ups, resets, etc.

mokuu said:
Now even if hit and caught in any of these situations, the consequence wouldn’t cost over half their health bar unless chained into a super or ultra move and even then, this wouldn’t occurs very often during a run (or to be straight on - As often as BB : Straight from the beginning of the round.)

From Evo this year: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h-B2-Xs9qgA
Infiltration beings the very match w/ dive kick into combo, includes a RESET into a demon flip throw. This single sequence takes away ~1/3 of Zangief's life. Considering how Zangief has the highest stamina/life in the game, this translates to be more like ~40% damage on the majority of the cast. No meter for ex, super, or ultra involved.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5s8qIvjXsoo
Guy in Super SFIV has sick reset mixup setups that lead into huge damage w/o meter. It's the same with Seth and a number of characters in Street Fighter; resets exist not in just BlazBlue, and more often than not lead to huge chunks of life if the defending player doesn't pick a defending response correctly. I still don't get why you're singling out BB when it's a general thing in fighting games.

Thinking about it, in SF during the majority of resets the only options the defending player has are either block high/low or reversal. While in BB, the defender has the same options in a standing reset; in a reset during a knockdown state (ground or air) they can tech in three different directions, each with varying amounts of invincibility. In both cases, the defender can also burst.

--JT

Posted 1 year ago #
Vlad
Member

I'm not that good at long combos, like those advanced combos in challenge mode with Lambda. I am, however, developing a strenght in keeping high pressure on opponents, by not letting them touch me, hence no long strings against myself, and while evading, keeping a heavy dose of annoyance by using different versions of Summon Swords and other long range attacks, only to then begin an assault with an Act Parcer Zwei (B or C versions) or move in with the A version and grab them, then start pissing people with Lambda's standing C, forward standing C and a variation of the Act Parcer or Sword Legacy.

When I do get in a bind and need to retreat, when I jump backwards, I use either an aerial Summon Sword or that attack in which she slashes downwards.

Because of all that practice, I just unlocked Nu a little while ago... I also had two ragequitters which insulted me... =P

Main: Lambda-11 (BBCS), Urs, Freed (BF) and Petra (AH3)
Sub: Noel, Mu-12, Tsubaki, Taokaka and Makoto (BBCS), Olivia and Odille (BF), Akane (AH3)
Wanna kick my ass? Add me! PSN: VladImpalador

Posted 1 year ago #

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